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1994-05-02
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<text>
<title>
South Africa: Buthelezi Interviewed
</title>
<article>
<hdr>
Foreign Broadcast Information Service, September 22, 1992
South Africa: Buthelezi Interviewed
</hdr>
<body>
<p>[Interview with Inkatha Freedom Party leader Dr. Mangosuthu
Buthelezi by SABC reporter Suzette Pocock and Patrick Laurence
and Khaba Mhkize, assistant editors of THE STAR and THE NATAL
WITNESS respectively, in the Durban studio "over the weekend"--recorded; first paragraph is live introduction by "Agenda"
program cohost Freek Robinson. Johannesburg SABC TV 1 Network
in English 1815 GMT 20 Sep 92]
</p>
<p> [Text] [Robinson] As the tragedy of Bisho recedes into
history, IFP [Inkatha Freedom Party] leader and kwaZulu chief
minister Dr. Mangosuthu Buthelezi has warned that such an ANC
[African National Congress] alliance march on Ulundi might lead
to civil war. Over the weekend, Suzette and a panel of
journalists questioned Dr. Buthelezi in Durban.
</p>
<p> [Begin recording] [Pocock] In the Durban studio tonight is
Dr. Mangosuthu Buthelezi, leader of the IFP and chief minister
of kwaZulu. Good evening, Dr. Buthelezi, and welcome. Also
joining me in the Durban studio tonight, the assistant editors
respectively of the NATAL WITNESS, and THE STAR, starting on my
immediate left, Mr. Khaba Mhkize, good evening and welcome, and
Mr. Patrick Laurence, good evening.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] Good evening.
</p>
<p> [Pocock] Dr. Buthelezi, the explicit finding of the
Goldstone Commission was that both the ANC and the IFP as well
as elements of the police were responsible for the violence.
There is now a desperate need for peace, and right at the outset
of the program, I'd like to ask you what you have done, and what
you are prepared to do to restore peace?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Well, that is a very difficult question, because
the violence doesn't just depend on us. All I can say is that
ever since the signing of the Peace Accord last year, we have
fully participated in all the meetings that have taken place
aimed at implementing the provisions of the Peace Accord.
</p>
<p> [Pocock] Are you committed to peace?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] I've always...I have been for three decades or
more.
</p>
<p> [Pocock] You say you are committed to peace and yet we've
heard statements threatening civil war?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] You can read what you like, as you journalists
do, from what I say. You know, for a long time I suffered, I
think perhaps an older journalist who has covered me for a long
time like Mr. Laurence, will bear me out that when I mentioned,
for instance, to P.W. Botha that there will be violence in this
country, he threatened me, he said that I was threatening. And
the same thing too was said by Mr. Botha. He said that, when I
warned about violence he said that, you know it takes two to
break a glass plane, and therefore implied that I meant that I
was threatening. I mean, if you warn a person that there's a
snake, if you cross that street there's a mamba there, you
don't mean to say you're going to put it there. So it's nonsense
to say that just because I say that there will be civil war,
that when I see that clouds are gathering, and there's going to
be a storm, that I'm going to bring about a storm.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] Mr. Chief Minister, perhaps I can pick up there.
Would you elucidate on why you gave them the warning of
possible or imminent civil war? What were the factors which
caused you to issue that warning--which is a solemn warning?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Well, my whole statement, Mr. Laurence, was that
we already have a low density [as heard] civil war in this
region of kwaZulu/Natal, and now if the ANC-SACP [South African
Communist Party]-COSATU [Congress of South African Trade
Unions] alliance say that they are coming to Ulundi to topple
me and the government when there's already so much anger in the
area because of so many of our people that have died at their
hands. I said that, you know, it would only make this low
density war to escalate into a bigger civil war.
</p>
<p> [Pocock] Are you saying then that we are already in a civil
war situation?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Of course, definitely, low density civil war.
When people are killed every day with AK rifles, families are
decimated, you know. Just three days ago eight members of the
IFP were going to work, and they were killed, and during the
weekend there was a funeral of 12 young people who were killed
while they were waiting for a bus to come to Ulundi, and two
weeks ago I attended the funeral of Mr. Fana Nzimande and his
wife and four children.
</p>
<p> [Mhkize] There's been some complaints that Brigadier Gqozo
did not fire a warning shot. Would I be reading you well if I
say you have now fired a figurative warning shot?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Well, there's (?military) overtones in what I'm
saying. If I say that something is going to happen, if I say
that if you walk that path there's a hole you're going to fall
into the hole, I don't mean to say that I'm going to dig the
hole.
</p>
<p> [Mhkize] What exact measures would you take to stop the
march on Ulundi?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] I said that I'm not going to raise a finger, but
the people in general, not IFP members, Zulus in general are
very angry, because you must remember that this is a very, very
emotional thing you know, because the first march on Ulundi was
by the British in 1879, and now if people say there are going
to march on Ulundi, which they don't look at as my base, but
which the see as the capital of the Zulu king and the Zulu
nation, then the anger worries me very much because there's a
lot of anger right through the population.
</p>
<p> [Pocock] Dr. Buthelezi: What would you do if faced with a
situation where you have got unarmed protesters? If you are
faced with those protesters what are you going to do?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] No, but I have told you that I am not going to
say that I am not going to do this or that because, in the
first place, I am not in the same position as a brigadier who
has got an army, I've got no army, but I say that my people, the
Zulu people generally speaking, are very angered.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] Mr. Chief Minister: The ANC has identified
kwaZulu as one of four territories where there is, I quote, no
free political activity. What is your response to that charge
against kwaZulu specifically?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] I made it very clear, and reminded every civil
servant that I have never asked them to be members of the IFP,
and that there is free association, and that democracy is about
choice.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] You say the ANC is free to organize in kwaZulu,
and free to hold meetings?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] I say it's part of South Africa. In fact, we are
not a separate country, like Transkei or Ciskei.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] No attempts have been made, or will be made, to
prevent them doing so, because this is the...
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Well, there are members of...[pauses] there
have been members of the ANC. In fact, a good example is my
first cousin, Prince Israel. Prince Israel is my first cousin,
and he is a member of the executive of the ANC.
</p>
<p> [Laurence] One of the points that is sometimes made to
substantiate the charge that there is not free political
activity in kwaZulu is that there is only one political party
which has representation in the legislative assembly. What is
your response to that?
</p>
<p> [Buthelezi] Well, Mr. Laurence, I mean you, like myself,
have been in this game for a long time, and you would know that
efforts were made by the government over many years to set up
all these political parties, and then those parties just faded
themselves because the people did not support them, and it is
nonsensical to say that therefore there is only one party in
kwaZulu, as if kwaZulu is in fact a country, because I have
never seen kwaZulu as a sovereign state.
</p>
<p> We are not a sovereign state, like Transkei and Ciskei are
supposed to be, but I would say therefore it is really